Well done describing the then degenerate pariah, Rey "Sylvia" Rivera, who strangely has today become an LGBTQIA+ icon who had accomplished nothing during his lifetime that wasn't solely centered on himself.
To whom you are attracted sexually is purely subjective and therefore cannot reasonably be contested by an outside observer. Where you decide to live your life on a spectrum of superficial, stereotypical male to female attributes (and we all do) is also purely subjective and similarly cannot be questioned. However, your biological sex reflects an objective reality which cannot be changed by your subjective personal view and futile attempts to do so can result in serious health impacts to you as well as actual harms to members of the sex you are impersonating (especially women). Finally, others who are grounded in objective reality should never be forced to accept your subjective version of your actual biological sex.
As a Lesbian, I have to object to being lumped in with my oppressors, "gays." Of course Lesbians fought again het men identifying as Lesbians and women from invading our communities. Many were already in our bars, leering at us, while saying they wanted to be Lesbians too.
We are and were expected to take care of and even donate blood to our oppressors. (Gay men who kicked dying Lesbians out of the Shanti Project, which was formed to help dying Lesbians and Gay men, still asked for our Lesbian blood, saying it was the "cleanest," which it is. One ad aimed at us in the Bay Times even said "our boys need blood." Meanwhile, Gay men had and have entire communities in San Francisco and other parts of the US, as well as far more money and resources than we will ever have. I won't forget the Gay man neighbor who had his arm around the het man who had recently started going to our last Lesbian events and was stalking my lover and I at night.
I don't have the time to answer the altering of our Lesbian history here, but much of this mess is and was in my community. Of course many woman want male privilege, which is substantial, but also of course they have to blame Lesbians for deciding to be "men," even though they will never be men. They are traitor collaborators and part of why we have almost nothing left of what we created in the late Sixties to now. Imagine if there were more Rachel Dolezals who, instead of wisely being rejected and called racist, that they took over key positions in the Black Community and got support from almost everyone to destroy that community. That's what we are dealing with with the trans cult. Trans is not even real. No one can change sex.
Also, the term "sexual orientation" is demeaning and offensive. Who we love is a choice, and anyone who says it's inborn does not know Lesbian history.
As a gay man who has had nothing but friendly and cordial relations with any lesbian I know and have met I object to you generalising and lumping us all together as oppressors in the same vain that you object to being lumped in with us. Come on, you’re claiming not all homosexual people are the same and shouldn’t be tarnished with the same brush then strategically removing yourself from a group and then proceeding to tarnish that group all with a negative brush. Maybe all this lumping folk together as some kind of autonomous collective that think, look, feel and do the same things as pretty childish and petty. It also has no basis in reality. I’ve met horrible people who have a myriad of sexualities and ethnic backgrounds, but I’m simply not naive or base enough to think that based on my interactions everyone with a shared sexuality or trait are the same. Should I have had more negative experiences with lesbians are you suggesting that it’s fair and right for me to judge you “Bev Jo” based on my negative experiences of other individuals who happen to have a sexual preference in common with you? I’d argue that is a very simplistic and childlike view of the world and would encourage you to see beyond labels and accept that your experience, as valid as they are, may lead a more cautious approach when interacting with gay men but are hardly indicative of very single gay man across the planet.
I'm not talking about individual gay men, but the very privileged movement that, as I said, both put Lesbians down and removed dying Lesbian from the organization created to help us and help gay men, with Lesbians eliminated for the benefit of gay men. We've been told we are not welcome on your neighborhoods (we've never even had a neighborhood) or at your rich parties because we're Lesbians. This is a long history, and erasure of our Lesbian history is part of it, even televised:
Just like to point out - I’ve never disinvited you to any party and don’t own any neighbourhoods. I think that’s more a problem with the people where you live. Ive never seen any issues like this in places I’ve been and I’ve lived across Europe, Asia and Australia. My experience of the “scene” in the US (only California) has been one of cliques and privilege and not a “community” that I personally felt comfortable in. Maybe that’s where your experience and anger comes from. I have however seen horrible excuses for human who are both lesbian and gay men, as well as heterosexuals. But I am aware that many people, like yourself, have a tendency to group folk together and paint entire communities as X based on their experience. As a result I try my best not to judge all *insert people* based on those experiences. I take you back to your initial statement of not wishing to be tarred by an overbidding “gay” brush and empathise with that. I just wish you could see the irony in your own behaviour. Personally, I love lesbians. I have many lesbian friends, it would be sad if I was to judge them all as negative based on my interactions with you. Don’t you think?
I agree about individuals, but communities are made up of individuals and gay men have far more power than Lesbians. Having Gay neighborhoods is powerful, and it's not just in the Bay Area. Again, I'm not seeing anyone trying to counter what is being done to us, but we are added to the list even when we aren't represented. That has a significant effect on what little remains of Lesbian community. An example is how "sexual orientation" is the accepted term that does not represent Lesbians, but again erases us. Gay men have more power of the press and, being men get more respect. https://keepingreallesbianfeminismsimple.wordpress.com/2019/04/01/part-two-lesbiansborn-this-way-or-making-a-choice-of-pride/
By the way, I know a gay man who told me how heartbroken he was because he has AIDS and keeps being asked to give it to other gay men. He looked like he was dying and did not know what to do. He was also aware of how much Lesbians had helped gay men and that it would never be reciprocated...
I just would appreciate gay men joining us in insisting on taking us out of the alphabet list or at least eliminating our worst oppressors, the het men of "T" and "Q."
> "Unfortunately, I cannot define masculine or feminine."
Given your legal chops, you might have some interest in an analogy on the topic from the late, great US Justice Anton Scalia:
Scalia: “The word 'gender' has acquired the new and useful connotation of cultural or attitudinal characteristics (as opposed to physical characteristics) distinctive to the sexes. That is to say, gender is to sex as feminine is to female and masculine is to male.”
Big part of the whole problem with the transgender clusterfuck is that too many people are scientifically, and biologically illiterate, and don't have a flaming clue about an idea central to statistics that there IS a difference between the sexes -- particularly as the ability to produce large or small gametes -- and the traits that correlate with them, to a greater or lesser extent. To a first approximation, "gender" is no more than a set of sexually dimorphic personality traits, roles, and behaviours.
Maybe of some use, a couple of my posts elaborating on that dichotomy, and a Wikipedia article on the topic:
Of particular note from the latter -- do note the "behavioral or cognitive traits", i.e., personalities (feminine and masculine):
"Sexual dimorphism is the condition where sexes of the same species exhibit different morphological characteristics, particularly characteristics not directly involved in reproduction. The condition occurs in most dioecious species, which consist of most animals and some plants. Differences may include secondary sex characteristics, size, weight, color, markings, or behavioral or cognitive traits."
But you sure do cover a lot of ground -- with thoroughness, panache, and humour. May even be worth a pledge at some point, even if only for a month or two. 🙂
“When Green’s book was published I was 19 and sensitive to charges that lesbians hated men. Where did that smear even come from, I used to wonder. Well, apparently one source was Jamison Green.”
Misandry is a well-documented phenomenon among women who identify as “lesbian” for political reasons, which was a big thing when Green was coming of age. I get the impression you’re trying to discredit or mock him, but it’s no surprise that he didn’t fit in with the lesbian community.
Well done describing the then degenerate pariah, Rey "Sylvia" Rivera, who strangely has today become an LGBTQIA+ icon who had accomplished nothing during his lifetime that wasn't solely centered on himself.
Fantastic, informative (and hilarious sarcasm, defining feminine and masculine indeed...). Thank you!
To whom you are attracted sexually is purely subjective and therefore cannot reasonably be contested by an outside observer. Where you decide to live your life on a spectrum of superficial, stereotypical male to female attributes (and we all do) is also purely subjective and similarly cannot be questioned. However, your biological sex reflects an objective reality which cannot be changed by your subjective personal view and futile attempts to do so can result in serious health impacts to you as well as actual harms to members of the sex you are impersonating (especially women). Finally, others who are grounded in objective reality should never be forced to accept your subjective version of your actual biological sex.
As a Lesbian, I have to object to being lumped in with my oppressors, "gays." Of course Lesbians fought again het men identifying as Lesbians and women from invading our communities. Many were already in our bars, leering at us, while saying they wanted to be Lesbians too.
We are and were expected to take care of and even donate blood to our oppressors. (Gay men who kicked dying Lesbians out of the Shanti Project, which was formed to help dying Lesbians and Gay men, still asked for our Lesbian blood, saying it was the "cleanest," which it is. One ad aimed at us in the Bay Times even said "our boys need blood." Meanwhile, Gay men had and have entire communities in San Francisco and other parts of the US, as well as far more money and resources than we will ever have. I won't forget the Gay man neighbor who had his arm around the het man who had recently started going to our last Lesbian events and was stalking my lover and I at night.
I don't have the time to answer the altering of our Lesbian history here, but much of this mess is and was in my community. Of course many woman want male privilege, which is substantial, but also of course they have to blame Lesbians for deciding to be "men," even though they will never be men. They are traitor collaborators and part of why we have almost nothing left of what we created in the late Sixties to now. Imagine if there were more Rachel Dolezals who, instead of wisely being rejected and called racist, that they took over key positions in the Black Community and got support from almost everyone to destroy that community. That's what we are dealing with with the trans cult. Trans is not even real. No one can change sex.
Also, the term "sexual orientation" is demeaning and offensive. Who we love is a choice, and anyone who says it's inborn does not know Lesbian history.
As a gay man who has had nothing but friendly and cordial relations with any lesbian I know and have met I object to you generalising and lumping us all together as oppressors in the same vain that you object to being lumped in with us. Come on, you’re claiming not all homosexual people are the same and shouldn’t be tarnished with the same brush then strategically removing yourself from a group and then proceeding to tarnish that group all with a negative brush. Maybe all this lumping folk together as some kind of autonomous collective that think, look, feel and do the same things as pretty childish and petty. It also has no basis in reality. I’ve met horrible people who have a myriad of sexualities and ethnic backgrounds, but I’m simply not naive or base enough to think that based on my interactions everyone with a shared sexuality or trait are the same. Should I have had more negative experiences with lesbians are you suggesting that it’s fair and right for me to judge you “Bev Jo” based on my negative experiences of other individuals who happen to have a sexual preference in common with you? I’d argue that is a very simplistic and childlike view of the world and would encourage you to see beyond labels and accept that your experience, as valid as they are, may lead a more cautious approach when interacting with gay men but are hardly indicative of very single gay man across the planet.
I'm not talking about individual gay men, but the very privileged movement that, as I said, both put Lesbians down and removed dying Lesbian from the organization created to help us and help gay men, with Lesbians eliminated for the benefit of gay men. We've been told we are not welcome on your neighborhoods (we've never even had a neighborhood) or at your rich parties because we're Lesbians. This is a long history, and erasure of our Lesbian history is part of it, even televised:
https://keepingreallesbianfeminismsimple.wordpress.com/2019/01/20/defending-our-lesbian-lives-and-history-from-male-erasure/
I have never seen any gay men fight or refute this. Have you?
Just like to point out - I’ve never disinvited you to any party and don’t own any neighbourhoods. I think that’s more a problem with the people where you live. Ive never seen any issues like this in places I’ve been and I’ve lived across Europe, Asia and Australia. My experience of the “scene” in the US (only California) has been one of cliques and privilege and not a “community” that I personally felt comfortable in. Maybe that’s where your experience and anger comes from. I have however seen horrible excuses for human who are both lesbian and gay men, as well as heterosexuals. But I am aware that many people, like yourself, have a tendency to group folk together and paint entire communities as X based on their experience. As a result I try my best not to judge all *insert people* based on those experiences. I take you back to your initial statement of not wishing to be tarred by an overbidding “gay” brush and empathise with that. I just wish you could see the irony in your own behaviour. Personally, I love lesbians. I have many lesbian friends, it would be sad if I was to judge them all as negative based on my interactions with you. Don’t you think?
I agree about individuals, but communities are made up of individuals and gay men have far more power than Lesbians. Having Gay neighborhoods is powerful, and it's not just in the Bay Area. Again, I'm not seeing anyone trying to counter what is being done to us, but we are added to the list even when we aren't represented. That has a significant effect on what little remains of Lesbian community. An example is how "sexual orientation" is the accepted term that does not represent Lesbians, but again erases us. Gay men have more power of the press and, being men get more respect. https://keepingreallesbianfeminismsimple.wordpress.com/2019/04/01/part-two-lesbiansborn-this-way-or-making-a-choice-of-pride/
By the way, I know a gay man who told me how heartbroken he was because he has AIDS and keeps being asked to give it to other gay men. He looked like he was dying and did not know what to do. He was also aware of how much Lesbians had helped gay men and that it would never be reciprocated...
I just would appreciate gay men joining us in insisting on taking us out of the alphabet list or at least eliminating our worst oppressors, the het men of "T" and "Q."
> "Unfortunately, I cannot define masculine or feminine."
Given your legal chops, you might have some interest in an analogy on the topic from the late, great US Justice Anton Scalia:
Scalia: “The word 'gender' has acquired the new and useful connotation of cultural or attitudinal characteristics (as opposed to physical characteristics) distinctive to the sexes. That is to say, gender is to sex as feminine is to female and masculine is to male.”
https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/ll/usrep/usrep511/usrep511127/usrep511127.pdf
Big part of the whole problem with the transgender clusterfuck is that too many people are scientifically, and biologically illiterate, and don't have a flaming clue about an idea central to statistics that there IS a difference between the sexes -- particularly as the ability to produce large or small gametes -- and the traits that correlate with them, to a greater or lesser extent. To a first approximation, "gender" is no more than a set of sexually dimorphic personality traits, roles, and behaviours.
Maybe of some use, a couple of my posts elaborating on that dichotomy, and a Wikipedia article on the topic:
"A Multi-Dimensional Gender Spectrum": https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/p/a-multi-dimensional-gender-spectrum
"Lies, Damned Lies, & Statistics": https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/p/lies-damned-lies-and-statistics
"Sexual dimorphism": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism
Of particular note from the latter -- do note the "behavioral or cognitive traits", i.e., personalities (feminine and masculine):
"Sexual dimorphism is the condition where sexes of the same species exhibit different morphological characteristics, particularly characteristics not directly involved in reproduction. The condition occurs in most dioecious species, which consist of most animals and some plants. Differences may include secondary sex characteristics, size, weight, color, markings, or behavioral or cognitive traits."
But you sure do cover a lot of ground -- with thoroughness, panache, and humour. May even be worth a pledge at some point, even if only for a month or two. 🙂
“When Green’s book was published I was 19 and sensitive to charges that lesbians hated men. Where did that smear even come from, I used to wonder. Well, apparently one source was Jamison Green.”
Misandry is a well-documented phenomenon among women who identify as “lesbian” for political reasons, which was a big thing when Green was coming of age. I get the impression you’re trying to discredit or mock him, but it’s no surprise that he didn’t fit in with the lesbian community.